Ansaugbrücke
- Catweazle
- Beiträge: 3360
- Registriert: So 17. Feb 2008, 18:08
- 16
- Wohnort: Gummersbach
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- Kontaktdaten:
Re: Ansaugbrücke
Hallo Jungs ,
es ist recht informativ was ihr beiden hier zum Thema gepostet habt .....Ich möchte dennoch darum Bitten Beleidigungen aussen vor zu lassen . Diese gehören hier nicht her. .
Pro & Contra ist immer gut ....aber BItte mit Niveau
es ist recht informativ was ihr beiden hier zum Thema gepostet habt .....Ich möchte dennoch darum Bitten Beleidigungen aussen vor zu lassen . Diese gehören hier nicht her. .
Pro & Contra ist immer gut ....aber BItte mit Niveau
Gruzzz Achim
Wenn du nicht mit Können beeindrucken kannst, dann verwirre mit Schwachsinn!
Wenn du nicht mit Können beeindrucken kannst, dann verwirre mit Schwachsinn!
- klein170478
- Beiträge: 5072
- Registriert: Mo 14. Apr 2008, 09:47
- 16
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Re: Ansaugbrücke
genau. sachlich diskutieren aber nicht persönlich werden.
aber sehr interessant. Viel technik usw..... macht mal weiter
aber sehr interessant. Viel technik usw..... macht mal weiter
if (AHNUNG == 0) { read FAQ; use SEARCH; use GOOGLE; } else { use brain; make post; }
-
- Beiträge: 349
- Registriert: Sa 21. Mär 2009, 23:43
- 15
- Fahrzeug: Z3 Roadster 2.0
- Baujahr: 1999
- Fahrzeug: Z3 QP 2.8
- Fahrzeugfarbe: Cosmosschwarz
- Baujahr: 1998
- Wohnort: Neu - isenburg
- Zodiac:
Re: Ansaugbrücke
Hallo
, ich weiss gar nicht was die 2 letzten post sollen , ich verteidige lediglich meinen standpunkt , und finde es schlecht das ich mir von einem uninformierten ans bein treten lassen soll , und das sachlich !
Findet ihr es denn toll wenn hier jemand 50 % forums wissen als bare münze verkauft und noch ein paar weitere Forums halbwahrheiten in die Welt setzt , das kann nicht sinn eines Forums sein oder ?
Wenn keinen wert gelegt wird auf fachliche infos um, z. B. geld beim Tuning nicht zum fenster raus zu werfen und jahre weiter immer wieder den Forums brei wieder zu kauen , ist es mir recht , da ich weiss was mein kumpel und ich gemessen und verändert haben um ergebnisse reproduzierbar zu machen und z.b. "links bremser tuning " (BMW treff threads ) theorien zu stützen oder festzustellen das es auch nur halbwahrheiten sind ........
gruß pat
, ich weiss gar nicht was die 2 letzten post sollen , ich verteidige lediglich meinen standpunkt , und finde es schlecht das ich mir von einem uninformierten ans bein treten lassen soll , und das sachlich !
Findet ihr es denn toll wenn hier jemand 50 % forums wissen als bare münze verkauft und noch ein paar weitere Forums halbwahrheiten in die Welt setzt , das kann nicht sinn eines Forums sein oder ?
Wenn keinen wert gelegt wird auf fachliche infos um, z. B. geld beim Tuning nicht zum fenster raus zu werfen und jahre weiter immer wieder den Forums brei wieder zu kauen , ist es mir recht , da ich weiss was mein kumpel und ich gemessen und verändert haben um ergebnisse reproduzierbar zu machen und z.b. "links bremser tuning " (BMW treff threads ) theorien zu stützen oder festzustellen das es auch nur halbwahrheiten sind ........
gruß pat
Re: Ansaugbrücke
ich wiederbelebe das hier mal kurz wieder...
evtl. sind folgende infos ja für einige interessant?
http://www.bmw-m.net/techdata/schrick.htm
Schrick Intake Flowbench Results
Today I flowtested a Schrick intake that belongs to Garrick Louie. Just like the M50 and M52 intakes that I tested, the unused runners were blocked off, and the measurements were taken at 28" of water on the 300cfm scale of the flowbench.
cyl.........%.........cfm
...1.........81.........243
..2.........80.........240
...3.........83.........249
..4.........82.........246
..5.........81.........243
..6.........81.........243
Observations:
A) The runner to runner balance is excellent. B) The outlets of the runners (where they mate to the cylinder head) have been CNC'd to the same dimensions as the M50 intake (55mm x 25mm). The actual runners are slightly larger than these dimensions though. C) The surface texture inside the runners is VERY rough (the factory plastic intakes are worlds better). D) The plenum is about the same size as the M52 intake (ie, smaller than an M50 intake). E) The Schrick intake flows between the M50 and M52, yet its port cross-sectional area is about the same as an M50 intake.
Comparison to M52 intake:
The Schrick has larger runners than the M52 intake, and more flow. I calculate the M52's port velocity to be roughly (and this is a VERY rough calculation, just for comparison's sake) 288 ft/sec, whereas the Schrick's port velocity is less than 273 ft/sec. The lower port velocity of the Schrick would explain the loss of low-mid range torque versus the M52 intake, and the higher port volume and flow would explain the slight horsepower gains with it. If the plenum where larger, maybe it would pick up more power up top.
Comparison to M50 intake:
The Schrick's runners have the same outlet size as the M50's intake, but the M50 intake has about 40cfm more flow per runner. The M50's port velocity would be at about 315 ft/sec, much higher than the Schrick's. So the Schrick has less flow, less port velocity, a smaller plenum, and *slightly* larger runners than an M50 intake. (Gee, I wonder why it's said that the Schrick is worthless on an M50 engine?)
Considering how rough of a surface they have, maybe some polishing of the Schrick's runners would help it, Only experimenting could answer that though.
If anybody has some thoughts or corrections regarding my observations, please, speak up. I'm not a professor in intake manifold theory, just a student :)
Nick
http://www.bmw-m.net/techdata/m50vsm52.htm
M50 vs M52 Flowbench Comparison
I put the M52 intake manifold on the flowbench today. Below are the results and the previous numbers I got from an M50 intake. All measurements were made on the 300cfm scale and at 28" of water. The unused runners were blocked off, so the numbers represent the flow from the throttle body opening to the port face.
..............M50..........M52
cyl 1.....284cfm.....188cfm
cyl 2.....276cfm.....191cfm
cyl 3.....288cfm.....201cfm
cyl 4.....288cfm.....195cfm
cyl 5.....276cfm.....194cfm
cyl 6.....284cfm.....191cfm
http://www.bmw-m.net/techdata/e36intflow.htm
Induction Component Flowbench Test
I had the opportunity to flowbench the HFM meter, stock air box, and my self-made K&N cone filter setup from my car (a 1995 M3) on a SuperFlow 300 flowbench. The HFM meter used on my car is the same that is used on all BMW's equipped with the M50TU engine (this includes 325's, 525's, and '95 M3's). The air box from my car is the same as used on all E36 M50/M52 powered cars (325's, 328's, and M3's).
All measurements were made at 6" of water. I have also converted the results to 20.4" (where carburetors are typically measured) and 28" (a common standard) of water. The temperature as indicated on the flowbench was 78 degrees fahrenheit for all measurements. The mounting fixture used was a piece of 3" exhaust tubing bolted to a piece of masonite. The mating point between the pipe and masonite was tapered and smoothened out with some clay.
Mounting Fixture Alone
6"
20.4"
28"
3" mounting fixture
380cfm
701cfm
821cfm
The stock air box draws air through a snorkel mounted on the front of it. This snorkel is then mounted next to the radiator, drawing cool air from the front of the car. As the air passes through the snorkel, it enters the air box through an internal baffle. The air box that I used had this internal baffle removed. The air then passes through the panel filter. The filter I used was a stock replacement from K&N. After the filter, the air goes through a tube that is slightly flared on its end, and then into the HFM meter.
My cone filter setup consists of a K&N Cone Filter (part # RE-0920), a 3" exhaust pipe about 9 1/2" long and mandrel bent at 45 degrees, and a 3" rubber coupler to mount the pipe to the HFM meter. (And yes, I have installed a heat shield next to the filter in the engine compartment :)
HFM Meter with screens
6"
20.4"
28"
fixture/meter
320cfm
590cfm
691cfm
fixture/meter/Cone setup
324cfm
597cfm
700cfm
fixture/meter/airbox
280cfm
516cfm
605cfm
fixture/meter/airbox/snorkel
240cfm
443cfm
518cfm
The HFM meter has plastic screens installed at its entry and exit points. I figure BMW put them there to ensure that the air passing through the meter is straight and uniform so the meter gets an accurate reading. Out of curiosity, I removed both screens and redid all of the flow tests.
HFM Meter w/o screens
6"
20.4"
28"
fixture/meter
360cfm
664cfm
778cfm
fixture/meter/Cone setup
380cfm
701cfm
821cfm
fixture/meter/airbox
320cfm
590cfm
691cfm
fixture/meter/airbox/snorkel
256cfm
472cfm
553cfm
It seems as if the K&N cone filter setup is the hot ticket to better intake airflow. It's apparent that removing the HFM meter screens also leads to more airflow. But removing the screens might also lead to poor driveability due to inaccurate meter readings. Personally, I've had the screens in my meter removed for several weeks and haven't noticed any change in driveability. I also haven't noticed any increase in power with their removal either. Maybe the increase in airflow isn't required by my engine just yet. That is something I'd like to check on the dyno some day.
I would also like to flow test a 540i/Euro M3 meter someday, as well as the meter from an M52 engine (328 and '96-newer M3). I have a 540i meter to test, but I don't have the proper adapter to mate it to a 3" pipe. I basically need the machined aluminum adapter that's sold with this particular meter when it's used on a '95 M3. I could measure the meter without the adapter, but the results wouldn't be comparable to the stock meter readings. It would be more fair to measure both meters using the 3" fixture, as both meters attach to the factory rubber elbow connecting to the throttle body (this elbow happens to measure about 3"). So if you're in the South Florida area and would like to donate your intake components one Saturday afternoon for some testing, drop me an email.
Nick Glantzis
Gruss
///Manuel
evtl. sind folgende infos ja für einige interessant?
http://www.bmw-m.net/techdata/schrick.htm
Schrick Intake Flowbench Results
Today I flowtested a Schrick intake that belongs to Garrick Louie. Just like the M50 and M52 intakes that I tested, the unused runners were blocked off, and the measurements were taken at 28" of water on the 300cfm scale of the flowbench.
cyl.........%.........cfm
...1.........81.........243
..2.........80.........240
...3.........83.........249
..4.........82.........246
..5.........81.........243
..6.........81.........243
Observations:
A) The runner to runner balance is excellent. B) The outlets of the runners (where they mate to the cylinder head) have been CNC'd to the same dimensions as the M50 intake (55mm x 25mm). The actual runners are slightly larger than these dimensions though. C) The surface texture inside the runners is VERY rough (the factory plastic intakes are worlds better). D) The plenum is about the same size as the M52 intake (ie, smaller than an M50 intake). E) The Schrick intake flows between the M50 and M52, yet its port cross-sectional area is about the same as an M50 intake.
Comparison to M52 intake:
The Schrick has larger runners than the M52 intake, and more flow. I calculate the M52's port velocity to be roughly (and this is a VERY rough calculation, just for comparison's sake) 288 ft/sec, whereas the Schrick's port velocity is less than 273 ft/sec. The lower port velocity of the Schrick would explain the loss of low-mid range torque versus the M52 intake, and the higher port volume and flow would explain the slight horsepower gains with it. If the plenum where larger, maybe it would pick up more power up top.
Comparison to M50 intake:
The Schrick's runners have the same outlet size as the M50's intake, but the M50 intake has about 40cfm more flow per runner. The M50's port velocity would be at about 315 ft/sec, much higher than the Schrick's. So the Schrick has less flow, less port velocity, a smaller plenum, and *slightly* larger runners than an M50 intake. (Gee, I wonder why it's said that the Schrick is worthless on an M50 engine?)
Considering how rough of a surface they have, maybe some polishing of the Schrick's runners would help it, Only experimenting could answer that though.
If anybody has some thoughts or corrections regarding my observations, please, speak up. I'm not a professor in intake manifold theory, just a student :)
Nick
http://www.bmw-m.net/techdata/m50vsm52.htm
M50 vs M52 Flowbench Comparison
I put the M52 intake manifold on the flowbench today. Below are the results and the previous numbers I got from an M50 intake. All measurements were made on the 300cfm scale and at 28" of water. The unused runners were blocked off, so the numbers represent the flow from the throttle body opening to the port face.
..............M50..........M52
cyl 1.....284cfm.....188cfm
cyl 2.....276cfm.....191cfm
cyl 3.....288cfm.....201cfm
cyl 4.....288cfm.....195cfm
cyl 5.....276cfm.....194cfm
cyl 6.....284cfm.....191cfm
http://www.bmw-m.net/techdata/e36intflow.htm
Induction Component Flowbench Test
I had the opportunity to flowbench the HFM meter, stock air box, and my self-made K&N cone filter setup from my car (a 1995 M3) on a SuperFlow 300 flowbench. The HFM meter used on my car is the same that is used on all BMW's equipped with the M50TU engine (this includes 325's, 525's, and '95 M3's). The air box from my car is the same as used on all E36 M50/M52 powered cars (325's, 328's, and M3's).
All measurements were made at 6" of water. I have also converted the results to 20.4" (where carburetors are typically measured) and 28" (a common standard) of water. The temperature as indicated on the flowbench was 78 degrees fahrenheit for all measurements. The mounting fixture used was a piece of 3" exhaust tubing bolted to a piece of masonite. The mating point between the pipe and masonite was tapered and smoothened out with some clay.
Mounting Fixture Alone
6"
20.4"
28"
3" mounting fixture
380cfm
701cfm
821cfm
The stock air box draws air through a snorkel mounted on the front of it. This snorkel is then mounted next to the radiator, drawing cool air from the front of the car. As the air passes through the snorkel, it enters the air box through an internal baffle. The air box that I used had this internal baffle removed. The air then passes through the panel filter. The filter I used was a stock replacement from K&N. After the filter, the air goes through a tube that is slightly flared on its end, and then into the HFM meter.
My cone filter setup consists of a K&N Cone Filter (part # RE-0920), a 3" exhaust pipe about 9 1/2" long and mandrel bent at 45 degrees, and a 3" rubber coupler to mount the pipe to the HFM meter. (And yes, I have installed a heat shield next to the filter in the engine compartment :)
HFM Meter with screens
6"
20.4"
28"
fixture/meter
320cfm
590cfm
691cfm
fixture/meter/Cone setup
324cfm
597cfm
700cfm
fixture/meter/airbox
280cfm
516cfm
605cfm
fixture/meter/airbox/snorkel
240cfm
443cfm
518cfm
The HFM meter has plastic screens installed at its entry and exit points. I figure BMW put them there to ensure that the air passing through the meter is straight and uniform so the meter gets an accurate reading. Out of curiosity, I removed both screens and redid all of the flow tests.
HFM Meter w/o screens
6"
20.4"
28"
fixture/meter
360cfm
664cfm
778cfm
fixture/meter/Cone setup
380cfm
701cfm
821cfm
fixture/meter/airbox
320cfm
590cfm
691cfm
fixture/meter/airbox/snorkel
256cfm
472cfm
553cfm
It seems as if the K&N cone filter setup is the hot ticket to better intake airflow. It's apparent that removing the HFM meter screens also leads to more airflow. But removing the screens might also lead to poor driveability due to inaccurate meter readings. Personally, I've had the screens in my meter removed for several weeks and haven't noticed any change in driveability. I also haven't noticed any increase in power with their removal either. Maybe the increase in airflow isn't required by my engine just yet. That is something I'd like to check on the dyno some day.
I would also like to flow test a 540i/Euro M3 meter someday, as well as the meter from an M52 engine (328 and '96-newer M3). I have a 540i meter to test, but I don't have the proper adapter to mate it to a 3" pipe. I basically need the machined aluminum adapter that's sold with this particular meter when it's used on a '95 M3. I could measure the meter without the adapter, but the results wouldn't be comparable to the stock meter readings. It would be more fair to measure both meters using the 3" fixture, as both meters attach to the factory rubber elbow connecting to the throttle body (this elbow happens to measure about 3"). So if you're in the South Florida area and would like to donate your intake components one Saturday afternoon for some testing, drop me an email.
Nick Glantzis
Gruss
///Manuel
Ich habe nicht vor, die von meiner Aussage indizierte Möglichkeit als Tatsache zu bestätigen,
aber ich frage: Wer kann es mit Sicherheit sagen?"
aber ich frage: Wer kann es mit Sicherheit sagen?"
Re: Ansaugbrücke
Oh, :oops:
Tabellen verrutscht, :idea:
aber es ist ja noch online nachzulesen ;)
evtl mag ein Mod dieses berichtigen :?:
gruss
///Manuel
Mounting Fixture Alone
6" 20.4" 28"
3" mounting fixture 380cfm 701cfm 821cfm
HFM Meter with screens
6" 20.4" 28"
fixture/meter 320cfm 590cfm 691cfm
fixture/meter/Cone setup 324cfm 597cfm 700cfm
fixture/meter/airbox 280cfm 516cfm 605cfm
fixture/meter/airbox/snorkel 240cfm 443cfm 518cfm
HFM Meter w/o screens
6" 20.4" 28"
fixture/meter 360cfm 664cfm 778cfm
fixture/meter/Cone setup 380cfm 701cfm 821cfm
fixture/meter/airbox 320cfm 590cfm 691cfm
fixture/meter/airbox/snorkel 256cfm 472cfm 553cfm
Tabellen verrutscht, :idea:
aber es ist ja noch online nachzulesen ;)
evtl mag ein Mod dieses berichtigen :?:
gruss
///Manuel
Mounting Fixture Alone
6" 20.4" 28"
3" mounting fixture 380cfm 701cfm 821cfm
HFM Meter with screens
6" 20.4" 28"
fixture/meter 320cfm 590cfm 691cfm
fixture/meter/Cone setup 324cfm 597cfm 700cfm
fixture/meter/airbox 280cfm 516cfm 605cfm
fixture/meter/airbox/snorkel 240cfm 443cfm 518cfm
HFM Meter w/o screens
6" 20.4" 28"
fixture/meter 360cfm 664cfm 778cfm
fixture/meter/Cone setup 380cfm 701cfm 821cfm
fixture/meter/airbox 320cfm 590cfm 691cfm
fixture/meter/airbox/snorkel 256cfm 472cfm 553cfm
Ich habe nicht vor, die von meiner Aussage indizierte Möglichkeit als Tatsache zu bestätigen,
aber ich frage: Wer kann es mit Sicherheit sagen?"
aber ich frage: Wer kann es mit Sicherheit sagen?"
-
- Gast
Re: Ansaugbrücke
Falls noch jemand Adapter für den Umbau braucht
Alles aus Edelstahl, inkl. Schrauben und Unterlegscheiben, sowie kraftstoff- und ölbeständige Dichtung.
Da ich darauf wert gelegt habe, dass man die Drosselklappe narrensicher so montieren kann, dass kein negativer Stoss entsteht (Kante die in die Luftströmung ragt), muss am Drosselklappengehäuse ca. 1mm Material an einem Befestigungsauge auf ca. 30mm länge per Feile abgetragen werden. Zudem ist der Strömungsdurchmesser der Adapterplatte grösser als der Innendurchmesser der Drosselklappe selbst. Um auch hier Montagetoleranzen und Toleranzen der Bauteile ausgleichen zu können.
Warum ist das wichtig?: Eine Kante in der Strömung lässt den Luftstrom "abreissen" und es entstehen zusätzliche Verwirbelungen, die die verbleibende Strömung deutlich über das Maß der Kante hinaus einschnüren. Man würde quasi eine Drossel einbauen. Das ist aus meiner Sicht bei einem Umbau der Ansaugbrücke, um Leistung zu gewinnen, nicht zielführend.
Klar kann man jetzt darüber diskutieren, wie viel das ausmacht. Vermutlich kaum messbar, aber wenn ich mir schon den Aufwand mache, eine Drosselstelle am Übergang Zylinderkopf - Ansaugbrücke zu entfernen (auch wenige mm²) dann baue zumindest ich mir nur ungern wieder an anderer Stelle eine Verengung ein. Vorher bearbeite ich lieber das Drosselklappengehäuse 5 min. mit der Feile. Da ich den Umbau bislang nur bei mir selbst durchgeführt habe, kann ich natürlich nicht sagen, wie da die Maße zwischen einzelnen Ansaubrücken schwanken.
Ich habe noch ein paar Sets mit Montageanleitung hier rumliegen, wer Interesse hat bitte pn oder mail. Gerne auch bei Rückfragen.
Viele Grüße
Alles aus Edelstahl, inkl. Schrauben und Unterlegscheiben, sowie kraftstoff- und ölbeständige Dichtung.
Da ich darauf wert gelegt habe, dass man die Drosselklappe narrensicher so montieren kann, dass kein negativer Stoss entsteht (Kante die in die Luftströmung ragt), muss am Drosselklappengehäuse ca. 1mm Material an einem Befestigungsauge auf ca. 30mm länge per Feile abgetragen werden. Zudem ist der Strömungsdurchmesser der Adapterplatte grösser als der Innendurchmesser der Drosselklappe selbst. Um auch hier Montagetoleranzen und Toleranzen der Bauteile ausgleichen zu können.
Warum ist das wichtig?: Eine Kante in der Strömung lässt den Luftstrom "abreissen" und es entstehen zusätzliche Verwirbelungen, die die verbleibende Strömung deutlich über das Maß der Kante hinaus einschnüren. Man würde quasi eine Drossel einbauen. Das ist aus meiner Sicht bei einem Umbau der Ansaugbrücke, um Leistung zu gewinnen, nicht zielführend.
Klar kann man jetzt darüber diskutieren, wie viel das ausmacht. Vermutlich kaum messbar, aber wenn ich mir schon den Aufwand mache, eine Drosselstelle am Übergang Zylinderkopf - Ansaugbrücke zu entfernen (auch wenige mm²) dann baue zumindest ich mir nur ungern wieder an anderer Stelle eine Verengung ein. Vorher bearbeite ich lieber das Drosselklappengehäuse 5 min. mit der Feile. Da ich den Umbau bislang nur bei mir selbst durchgeführt habe, kann ich natürlich nicht sagen, wie da die Maße zwischen einzelnen Ansaubrücken schwanken.
Ich habe noch ein paar Sets mit Montageanleitung hier rumliegen, wer Interesse hat bitte pn oder mail. Gerne auch bei Rückfragen.
Viele Grüße
-
- Gast
Re: Ansaugbrücke
ich hab bei ebay mal wieder ein wenig geschaut ... und dachte ich frag euch mal, ob sich das lohnen würde hier geld zu investieren ..
die frage die sich mir stellt ... meinen 2,8er mit einer neuen ansaugbrücke plus kennfeldoptimierung und sportluftfilter zu versehen ... oder verkaufen und nen 3,0er dann irgendwann holen?
http://www.ebay.de/itm/120854171398?ssP ... 1423.l2649
passt die Brücke zum 2,8er VFL überhaupt?
und ist sie mit einer Schrick Ansaugbrücke zu verlgiechen ?
lg
die frage die sich mir stellt ... meinen 2,8er mit einer neuen ansaugbrücke plus kennfeldoptimierung und sportluftfilter zu versehen ... oder verkaufen und nen 3,0er dann irgendwann holen?
http://www.ebay.de/itm/120854171398?ssP ... 1423.l2649
passt die Brücke zum 2,8er VFL überhaupt?
und ist sie mit einer Schrick Ansaugbrücke zu verlgiechen ?
lg
-
- Gast
Re: Ansaugbrücke
aahhh okay Danke ..
na denn schau ich erstmal nachm Fahrwerk ^^
na denn schau ich erstmal nachm Fahrwerk ^^